Nick rates higher in many things.
Plumlee passing & defensive rebounds, lead team in both. Per minute DRB highest, assist only behind who ever PG is healthy.
Get healthy and motion/pass offense or other playmaker emerge, sadly ugly & awkward Gomer one of our better, by far best from frontcourt. Other step up and replace be awesome, but not going to be Nick…2 assists last 7 games vs Plumlee 30.
Defensive rebounding rate Nick improving, had 22 in recent 3 games. Then last 4, 15 total.
I think the deal is to start Plumlee til the trade deadline. Hoping he brings back a asset. All so not starting Richards drives down his value for next season signing. If we can get a late first early second for Plumlee it’s a win.
I don’t think we can expect that Cliff’s actions reflect getting trade value. Whatever he’s doing presently is to win.
I think Plumlee is in there more as a big that can help make others better and facilitate. Richards’ time will come, especially when we have more healthy playmakers.
By deadline trade Nick and play Mark. Similar game, Mark looking better faster.
Get some value from playoff team with playmakers but desperate for ORB & size, like us & Harrell last year.
But has a lowest $ cost & expiring RFA.
Not just any type of passing game & ball movement. Simple who’s out there can actually handle the ball and dribble
Any.
Even if ‘skill’ is clunky & ugly & low productivity would prefer never see in a game…ever.
Now head slap a couple times a game gives a concussion.
If we trade Nick based after what he’s shown us this year and even in spurts last year before coach stopped playing him (who knows why??), then we are complete dumbasses. I’m a fan of Kupchak and don’t think he would let that happen. Trade Plumlee and let the rookie M. Williams get some burn as backup remainder of year. Then we will know who looks good and who needs work before next year. Kai needs minutes too so he can develop. Let’s use rest of this year as player development so we will be ready to rock when our studs get healthy. No need to “tank” but let the youth grow and develop since we not in the playoff race. If they start winning games then wonderful.
That’s what we all want. The word ‘tank’ is so emotive, but that’s what we would be doing.
Give our young players the minutes they need to show us what they’ve got, and develop their game. Value development over wins. The fact our vets aren’t good enough to get us into the playoffs makes it as clear as it possibly could be that this is the only prudent course of action.
We should play hard, as a team, developing chemistry and understanding between young players who could be part of playoff success in a couple of years (next year if the ping pong balls bounce our way).
Let’s go out and see what problems a tall and lengthy front court of Thor, Kai & Williams can pose opposition for stretches of a game.
What ball movement, switchability and D does a smallish lineup of DSJ, LaMelo, McGowens, McDaniels & Kai give us?
Can we play a defensively focused lineup of DSJ, LaMelo, McDaniels, Thor & Richards and still score enough points?
We simply must focus on developing our youth and gain any positive assets we can from our vets.
I think there is a middle ground though. To me, tanking involves jettisoning all or most of your vet talent. That’s where I differ with many here. I’m not anti-losing. I was oddly elated when Kawai hit that game winner last night. But I just don’t think we need to give guys away in order to lose. GH is out for the foreseeable future as we all knew he would be eventually and we’re not going to rush Lamelo back, especially after his re-injury. I’m not glad all these guys are hurt, but it’s created the perfect scenario for us, forcing us to play our young guys while still losing.
And even if/when we get back to full strength, we’re still a sub .500 team. We’ll have our shot at Wemby. But even if somehow the stars align and we were to win the lottery, Lamelo and Wemby alone won’t be enough to make us contenders. We’d still still need supporting talent around them, not to mention a veteran presence. Terry would be the ideal complimentary piece to keep around. And if we were to re-sign PJ, Oubre or dare I say, Miles, we’d be positioned to be competitive immediately.
If we can find a taker for GH or Plumlee, go for it but I’m not in favor of a large scale fire sale, at least not during the season. Others may disagree, but I just don’t think the scorched earth approach is necessary in order for a rebuild to occur.
I respect where you’re coming from and, as I’m not on the inside, I don’t know how much positive influence Terry & Oubre have on the younger guys. And that does matter. But, we’re only talking about 4 vet players, 2 of which are on expiring contracts.
Of them, Mason, is clearly limiting minutes and opportunities for Richards and Williams (Kai too). It may be a touch too soon for Williams, but I doubt he’d be that inferior to Mason right now (granted, ball movement would suffer). It’s the opportunity cost of the minutes Mason is getting that rubs me the wrong way. Plus, he’s on an expiring. He’s the one that simply has to go or be sat on the bench.
Hayward is … Hayward. If you can get out from his contract early, without it costing picks, you do it.
The other two I have much less of an issue with. Oubre, another expiring, could be resigned, but more than likely should be traded for picks. I’m ok with either direction, depending on the deal of course.
Terry is an ideal 6th man and I like the guy. That said, I’d move him if a decent offer came along, to clear cap space so that we might invest it in a player who fits us better and use the assets gained to add further complimentary talent.
100% with you on Plumlee. At his age he’s not a part of our future and while he’s solid, Richards has already surpassed him in most areas. Plus Williams needs court time to develop. I’m not at all opposed to moving him.
Doesn’t have ball skills or pass as good as plumlee but at least has some frontcourt passing have to get back
As teams flounder, FO do fan deals, we trade
C Plumlee, PF/C PJ, at least Den 1st, Miles, & Oubre matching$
PF Randle
there will need to be some juggling & 3rd team
I am of the growing opinion that Mason is providing empty calorie ball movement. And watching last night, if the 2x fights with Jalen over boards are an indicator, empty calorie rebounding too.
If you watch him, he doesn’t do a lot of grunt work to get rebounding position. He can do it, he just often doesn’t do it. He gets a good numbers at times but it’s not consistent that he makes those opportunities. The passing is good at times, but at what cost? How many times will he pass up a layup within 2’ of the basket to pass out to a not entirely open shooter? How many times does his bringing the ball up lead to a few seconds of clunky reset just past midcourt? Its like he can do things, just that those things aren’t entirely additive. And I think we could find better ways of doing those same things with other personnel we already have.
Besides goofy catch ball moving dribbling skill,
(With many playing all life, How is NBA filled with so many players who lack any skills level?)
Points created is kept up with
PG highest on team as expected, frontcourt…
Hayward 11 pts/game(11 games)
Plumlee 10.1 pts (24)
Jalen 6.0 (24)
PJ 5.9 (24)
Oubre 2.9 (24)
Nick 1.6 (24)
JT 1.1 (14)
Kai .9 (15)
Mark 0 (3)
I don’t know of any Ben Simmons guesstimate opinions stats
Or how much previous years team motion type changed to dependence on individual skill, no matter what level.
My assertion is that there’s an opportunity cost in Mason being the creator. I don’t find him to be that creative or novel in his vision of the court, other players could be making this hits with less collateral detriment. Hell, even if it dropped off a bit with next up, if that player was part of our future, that’s still a better investment.
Anyone claiming Plumlee is a great playmaker is wrong. About Average 2-1 assist to TO ratio (98-45) with a high handles skill relative to position than overall skill grade. He leads teams in assists at the lowest regulars usage rate not from an elite talent base, but because of injuries and poor roster talent.
plumlee not ball dominant high usage, team not loaded with overshadowing talent, who are these other handlers you talking about?
I’m not suggesting you are getting the same facilitation from an alternative. There is likely a dropoff. I’ll take that dropoff for the other opportunities created by it, it’s not like he’s leading to winning play.
I agree entirely. I was just acknowledging Williams doesn’t move the ball as well as Mason. That said, you’re probably spot on, rather than pass the ball a couple of feet out he’d rise up and throw it down.
To repeat myself, Mason is the one of the four vets that Mitch absolutely should instruct Cliff to not play. Even forgetting Williams’ development for a moment, how about we found out as much as we can about Richards before giving him a new contract? Richards backed up by Williams (to begin with) with Kai as the small ball 5, big 4 is how it should be IMHO.
I can’t believe there is this much plumlee discussion. He’s not very good. He is a negative to offense when handling the ball or being the focus. He is allowed by the defense to do this because it is far better than Hayward or ball having the ball.
Clifford is the perfect storm coach for this. His offense always revolves around this see al Jefferson, Cody, vucevic etc.
One of those players isn’t like the rest…
I’ll take vucevic.