Game 6: Hornets at Mavericks

Hornets Talk
21

Thoroughly agree with you and @QC_Thundercats about LaMelo getting others in their flow first, to get their confidence up, before taking over later on.

This only adds fuel to my ‘Terry is best as a 6th Man’ fire. He still gets his minutes, especially in the fourth quarter, but his hero mode (not meant as a dig) works best when our offensively challenged bench players are on the floor. If you’re trotting out Theo, Thor and Nick at the same time, Terry’s ability to take over offensively doesn’t get in anyone’s way. In fact, it takes pressure off them. Then, when PJ is coming off the bench, once the wife beater is starting, the second unit scoring would be down to Terry (option 1) and PJ (option 2). Surround those two with Theo, Nick and either another bench player or a starter rounding out the unit, and we look much better, much deeper, all of a sudden.

LaMelo, Miller, Hayward, Beater, Mark; Terry, PJ, Nick & Theo would be the rotation I think gives us the best balance.

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The fact that star players take over in the fourth quarter is certainly exacerbated by biased officiating! The NBA is, without doubt, the worst officiated sporting league I’ve ever seen.

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23

Some of us have been trying to trade him for 2 years. Jussayin

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24

I could maybe get on board with Terry as a 6th man if this was a contending team with 2 legitimate superstars. But on this team, Terry is a primary option. Our starting line up flat out struggles to score at times and regularly gets off to slow starts that are hard for us to recover from. I just can’t see how taking your leading scorer, and your most capable shot creator off that unit makes us a better team. On many occasions, it’s Terry’s timely shot making that has kept us in games or brought us back into contention.

Who’s way is Terry getting in? I’m not sure where this reputation of him as a selfish player comes from (not saying those were your exact words but that seems to be the general sentiment that several people have expressed). He’s a very willing passer and has averaged almost 5 assists per game since he’s been here, which is actually quite good given his role as a primary scorer. And as for the “hero ball” label, I’d say Lamelo is most guilty of playing hero ball with the quick trigger, 30-foot 3s, which is even more disruptive to the flow of the team’s offense IMO, given that they often come early in the possession and given his role as the primary facilitator.

We all see what we see, but I just don’t see Terry’s play as being as problematic as a lot of people are making it out to be. In any case, the next few games should certainly inform this debate.

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In general, I’m fine with Terry. (And agree that Melo can go hero far more than Terry, though the results can be far more spectacular also, like last night.) In a perfect world, he’d be our Vinnie “The Microwave” Johnson or Bobby Jackson super sub type scorer, who may stay in at the end of the game if he’s hot.

I don’t want to focus any undue criticism on him. I just think we have (and have had) a lot of talented players that have appeared more mediocre because of how we have historically played our brand of pick and roll basketball, which leaves a lot of guys seeming to stand around watching and not building any offensive momentum, which typically then translates on the defensive end.

At this point, we have one of the most capable passers in NBA history along with a lot of guys who are capable of shooting from the outside and attacking the rim. Our primary focus needs to be how to keep those guys constantly locked in on offense that in turn feeds the energy on defense.

I don’t know what the answer is to that. I’m not exactly sure how Terry fits into that. But I know he’s a great player with value that might help us get a player that can be more of a glue guy, though that is predicated on the ideas that PJ shows consistency in his offensive game and Miller becomes what we think he’s going to be become.

26

Not sure I agree with this. So far this year, 3rd from the bottom in 3pt% at 30.6. Last year was 2nd from bottom at 33. Pretty much agree with everything else.

I think terry would have helped last night. His biggest strength is being able to score late in the game. He seems to welcome the challenge and wants the ball.

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I think a lot of guys are capable (PJ, Miller, GH, Thor, Theo) but it’s hard to be more consistent if you’re not getting consistent opportunities. Also, our team 3% is heavily weighted on the shooting of Melo and Terry, who have averaged about half of our attempts (14/28.8), with 7.8 and 6.2 respectively. Terry has shot 25.8%, which doesn’t help. Meanwhile, GH is hitting 43%, PJ is hitting 40%, Thor is at 33% and Miller is still 31%.

We need to find ways to get those guys more looks, especially Miller who looks like he could go off.

I would not describe Terry as selfish. I think he’d do what he needs to do to win. I just think he’s not as aware of the other guys, and we need to get them more involved.

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I would start theo with melo. Let miller come off the bench until at least January. I think theo would be a great compliment to melo anyway.

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For context, I agree Terry is a primary option on this team.

I also agree that LaMelo is absolutely more likely to go hero ball than Terry. But that serves as another reason for Terry to move to 6th Man. Not of Terry’s making, but it’s absolutely a factor.

Terry still gets his 30+ mins. Terry will play the vast majority of the fourth quarter. I simply prefer the starting unit to be LaMelo, Miller, Hayward, Beater & Mark. Terry and PJ not being there is a matter of balance, not a matter of quality or form. Manu Ginobili was, at worst, the third best player on that very, very good Spurs team. Being the 6th Man wasn’t a slight.

I want Terry’s take over ability on the second unit. I want Beater in the starting group because he offers better rim pressure and, vitally, better rebounding than PJ. It’s not about who’s better overall, it’s not about the number of minutes, it’s about … you guessed it … balance.

*Full disclosure, as you know, I’d trade Terry at the deadline if we can get decent value. But while he’s on the roster, I’m pulling for him 100%. I simply think he’s better as a 6th Man on this roster.

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I hear you. I just have a different philosophy. I believe that generally speaking, you should begin and end the game with your best players on the floor, and Terry is clearly one of our best players. In between, you can certainly use whatever combinations you like to take advantage of certain match ups or make situational adjustments.

So you believe a point guard on a two-way contract should be our starting shooting guard and replace Terry in the starting line up? Tell me more.

31

Yes while Terry is injured.

  1. Miller looked less comfortable with the change. I am most interested in developing him and right now I think the game is slower to him as the first sub

  2. Theo is a natural pg. Melo is natural combo guard who plays like a point guard. Theo can help balance the floor in that regard.

  3. Miller can continue his normal rotations at 30+min per game.

*You are correct that Theo is a less than ideal talent. However, that’s the FO choice in not actually addressing the imbalance in the backcourt rotation.

** I also predicted the under on wins because this team lacks talent and depth. This is just one example that was easily predicted.

32

For me, I’d want to stagger Melo and Theo’s minutes throughout the game. As the only 2 competent pgs on the team, there should never be a time when one of them is not on the floor. They should have some together time, but I’d prefer it maybe later on, 2nd half to maybe set Melo up as a scorer.

The way Melo played last game gives me some confidence that he is capable of looking for others first, to be a true pg, instead of forcing shots. He was hurting the team trying to get his numbers before that, but I feel like something had to have clicked last game, that he can still get his, just be patient.

I agree with the concept that ideally, Miller would develop at an easier pace off the bench, taste success against 2nd stringers. But he’s been praised endlessly by Clifford for his basketball IQ, which knowing Cliff, he neeeeeeever does, especially rookies. And I think by Miller’s nature he is very unselfish, he’s clearly deferring to the “hierarchy” of scorers on the team.

So in that sense, let him get used to the routine of starting, allow him to figure out his spots of when to be aggressive with the starters, and maybe build that trust with the starters to begin looking for him to now be a creator/scorer. I think in that case, the progression will be choppier but quicker for him in the starting unit.

As for Miles, I’m still not starting that guy. I still cringe at the thought of having him announced with the starters whether people boo him (which they should), or cheer for him (which would make me feel uncomfortable). Sets a bad energy to start the game either way, and we’re the last team that needs to start any games with bad energy.

Plus, I think PJ is a better shooter and can stretch the floor, and is good “muscle” next to Mark’s length. Let Miles throw his 8 ball body against second stringers and get his points then. Not rewarding stupidity with starter’s time. At the end of the year, if he walks, he walks.

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Gotcha…I thought you meant in lieu of Terry in general. While Terry’s hurt I can understand your logic there. I’d prefer an in shape Ish over Theo, but Ish definitely looked out of sync and not ready to go so I could understand the preference for Theo. But I do think Miller can handle it. He’s going to have his rookie moments, but I think his talent and natural feel for the game will make his learning curve less steep. I think he’d get comfortable as a starter rather quickly.

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I disagree. Clifford endlessly praises rookies and young players but never actually plays them. I will say Miller is getting minutes which is a welcome departure from norms

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You guys forget he played Cody Zeller his rookie year too. But he played him out of position and said he wasn’t ready. I think he has a bad habit of putting guys in positions to not succeed. He hits on one from time to time, like Kemba, but overall, his track record is not putting guys in situations to succeed.

I’m going to amend this to say, Clifford might be right in a lot of his inclinations. His W/L record isn’t such that i think the guys he asks to make a leap of faith believe in. Therefore, a lot of his insights or where he puts guys falls way short.

36

Ok yes, you’re correct, cause he was even praising Bouk last year. But the nuance I was more getting at was him praising actual basketball IQ, which I don’t think he gives credit as easily.

Here’s the Bouk praise:

He’s got real talent. Like I’m talking real talent, like starter’s talent. The other thing about him that I’ll say that’s different is he delivered in college. He was drafted on two things - potential, but also performance. With the way we do it now and this is the same with every team, you draft now on potential. So a lot of these guys everybody be saying why aren’t they playing? Look at their college stats. They’re going to be good players eventually but they haven’t played well yet anywhere - he has. I mean, that guy was a great player in college.

Talent yes, ability to understand the game, know how to play, not listed.

The Miller praise is definitely higher level for IQ:

“To play in this league, you’re talented, but (Miller) is one of the few guys, even within guys in this league – Tracy McGrady was like this – somebody would show him something, and he could do it that night. Miller, you show him something in the afternoon, and he can do it tonight,” Clifford said. “He has super high IQ and it comes easy to him.

“He sees what has to happen, whether it’s a technique thing on defense or you change something, and you don’t teach that. He learns quickly. He doesn’t need a lot of reps; that’s another thing in this league the better players don’t have to do something day after day – they can do it. The younger players coming into the league don’t have the foundation they used to years ago. He does.”

There were other interviews I saw him saying similar. For other players, I think he’ll often bring up work ethic, talent, willingness, but not as often their knowledge or awareness.

Or I could be wrong and Cliff is always bullshitting. But I think the IQ merit badge is only given out to those who actually earn it.

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37

Different flavours of ice-cream. No worries.

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38

Morally, I completely agree with you. I don’t want him on this roster at all. He should be in jail, not earning millions of dollars and showing the fans that beating your wife, in front of your kids, choking your wife, in front of your kids, throwing pool balls at your wife’s car, while she AND YOUR KIDS ARE IN IT, isn’t really that bad a thing to have done. That said, if he’s playing, I want to use the athlete as it suits the team best. Mark isn’t a good defensive rebounder, and PJ is about the worst rebounding PF in the league. For that reason alone, I want the beater throwing his weight around the right way for once, and snagging rebounds.